Kevin Hogan
OK. Hello and welcome. To this latest episode of Innovations and Education. The podcast that delves into the ever evolving world of education technology and its impact on today's schools. I'm your host, Kevin Hogan, and today I'm excited to introduce Ki Karou. He's the senior director of product content for Mind Research Institute. And who has been on the forefront of Ed Tech and game-based learning? Ki leads a team of learning and game designers, artists and mathematicians developing the next generation of the St. Mass Interactive programs. He's been designing neuroscience, driven edtech solutions for over a decade. Prior to joining mind, he founded Beyond Math and Education Company focused on teaching math and unique and nontraditional ways. Kai, spoken at South by Southwest Edu and written articles published in the Huffington Post. He is a bachelor’s in engineering at the University of California, Berkeley. In this episode, we discussed the evolving nature of educational gains and their potential to enhance learning. Kai shares his unique perspective on how game-based learning can be integrated into the curriculum and the importance of addressing skepticism surrounding screen time in the classroom. He also explores the distinct distinctive nature of math. And the opportunities for making the subject more engaging through game-based learning. Have a listen. Guy, thanks so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your time.
Ki Karou
Pleasure to be here.
Kevin Hogan
Now we were talking at the end of this day. I mean, it's actually a little bit here in, in the distance to not have the opportunity to meet with you folks there at the show but appreciate you taking the time to kind of do a follow up. I'm finding some of my conversations, it's a little bit better to do it in in hindsight as opposed to being in, in the thick of the show. But let me ask you to start off. How was the show for you?
Ki Karou
Yeah, it's still is fantastic. I mean, it's an opportunity to see all the latest Ed tech elements that are out on the market and just really interesting to see a lot of the buzz. I mean, particularly around AI is very high at Esti and you know in particular we're focused on. You know the educational space, and in particular. How do you leverage? Tech in order to really enhance the learning experience. And so those are things that I'm really looking out for and Steve Din and had some great conversations about.
Kevin Hogan
Yeah. Well, then you you mentioned AI. That was certainly the 800 pound gorilla. You couldn't get get away from it in any sort of conversation. But the other, you know, there's still some other emerging technologies that we're going through, one of which certainly the the gamification, which has been around for a while, but I think. During the past couple of years with the pandemic, as with anything else involving remote learning, that it was amplified and accelerated during that time, along with another topic which, while in the same sphere but might be a little different and I wanted to ask you because of your background, to talk a little bit about gamification as it comes to. The curriculum in school and the other topic is of E Sports. I think both of those phrases get tossed around, sometimes interchangeably. But as I understand it, there are are a lot of distinctions. Maybe you can kind of help our readers make those distinctions.
Ki Karou
Sur yeah. So I'll start on the esports side. I mean, that's, gosh, blown up. For the last five years, actually a lot of it has come out of the work done. At UCI that. They actually have a whole esports area of research there, and we actually partner with UCI, so I connect with Kurt, who's in charge of a lot of the esports work there and was at a conference. And yeah, I mean tons of work that's been blowing up. E Sports in general, I mean really, is the propagation of. People that are really into video games and wanting that to be treated seriously as a sport, right? So it's an opportunity to take what's done typically in competitive, more physical sports and then translate that into the video game environment, right. So it's an opportunity to get to compete at a really high level, which is fantastic and reaches a much broader set of. Users in that way. Obviously that is. That's not looking at games for educational purposes, right? That's looking at games as an extracurricular, as an opportunity for additional competition. Whereas game based learning is also another theme that's been in education for years and that specifically, how do you take the secret ingredients that makes games such an engaging? Vehicle and then really bring those elements into the educational environment in order to create an enhanced and more engaging educational experience.
Kevin Hogan
But I think sometimes they both kind of get lumped in together with a bit of skepticism when it comes to from parents, maybe certain school boards, you know, especially when you look at public schools and, you know, it's the public right and there's a, there's a sentiment, I think especially during the pandemic, when you talk about screen times and the effectiveness or the not effectiveness of. In terms of learning using a screen, talk a little bit about that, especially from the gamification side of where you see where you can kind of address some of those skepticisms.
Ki Karou
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, the truth is kids are on screens a lot these days, right? And if you are going to utilize screen time in the classroom. The thing that you need to make sure that you're not doing is having them do the same types of activities that they're already spending hours and hours out at humble, right? If we are going to be leveraging screens in the classroom, which there's amazing elements you can do with technology for learning, it really has to be focused on a learning enhancement. So an element that. Can't be achieved. In a non digital form and in that way what you're doing is you're enhancing and deepening the learning as opposed to just using it as a vehicle to do more practice, adding entertainment aspects. And yeah, that are actually just much more similar to what kids are. Doing at home already.
Kevin Hogan
Yeah, was someone who pretty much was just aged out before Oregon Trail. So we're talking. And I was at 8990. Last century, he's easy. Last century talk about the evolution. I mean, one of the things was is that. Education gaming was just not fun enough for kids to become addicted to it. Almost right versus the the other way around. Where are we in those stages? Because the stuff that you're doing and the stuff I saw on the show 4, I mean, there's there's extraordinary work. Being done, absolutely.
Ki Karou
Yeah. So I mean, educational games used in. Schools really came out in the 80s, right and into the 90s. I mean, this is when computers started making their way into the classrooms Oregon trail, like you mentioned, one of the first ones, math blaster. Also. That was a game from the. Yeah. And what we ended up seeing is there'd be a few computers in the classroom and some kids would go and play on that as part of their supplemental time. And then what's blossomed, and I mean, this has been over the last 30 years now, right, is the increasing amount of games that can be used in the classroom and specifically. And this is where we insert. Is that a lot of games were initially done as a supplement, and so one of the challenges of actually getting. Games and digital games into the classroom is that you have to find a fit into the curriculum where it actually integrates into the curriculum in a meaningful way, right? A lot of games. I mean, Organ trail is great, but it ends up being this extra supplemental experience that you're having. And then you've got your full curriculum that you're doing, whether it's math or science or whatever it is. And what's emerged over the years is starting to build games in a way that. Actually can become an entire curriculum's worth of content. We talked about some of the game based learning elements that we build and I actually don't call what? We do games. I call them puzzles because puzzles essentially for teaching mathematics the best way for kids to learn math is by solving puzzles, so that's what we build. We build puzzles for kids to learn, and what we've been able to do is actually create an entire curriculums. Worth. And So what that does is rather than just finding different inserts for how do you integrate the game, students can actually use these types of learning platforms as an entire supplement experience that parallels their their core experience. And it also you introduce adaptive elements, you introduce the fact that all students have their own learning pathway and you can see. Data merge with that and all of those elements just lead to where we're at now, where there's actually this kind of crossover between. I can speak to the math education spaces, particularly because that's where we focused. You've got a number of what I would call math education supplements, right, the supplemental math activities where you're gonna learn your mathematics or in reading, you've got a reading supplement and they're going to mirror the core curriculum. And those are the types of programs that are going to get the most. Use in the classroom because they have the massive coverage and there's a need that they fit in the classroom just super well. That's super tight in a way that when you just have one off game activities, it's really hard to find that same level of integration. You're asking for the teachers to find how to make it fit. And so that's one of the things that have really emerged. That have allowed elements to integrate a lot more. That also makes it challenging for a lot of really amazing games and activities that are out there to actually integrate into the curriculum.
Kevin Hogan
Yeah. Talk a little bit about how math is distinct from, say, other subject matter. In past conversations, the difference seems to me to be is the need to show your work right, and that is that there's like a kind of an additional way. And as I think it was seen, especially during the pandemic too. I mean you kind of could switch over to social studies in the zoom classroom, maybe do some asynchronous stuff that way. It's a little different. With math though, right?
Ki Karou
Yeah, every subject has their own unique requirements. And math in particular, giving students problems to solve and having them share their work is a big component. Again, I think one of the benefits and obviously this blew up during COVID is the opportunity for students to work in a self-paced manner, right. So again, having students get to play through an experience. And then teachers being able to see the data regarding their progress, seeing where they're struggling, using those as opportunities to go in and assist their students and. And yet, as I shared before, math is a vehicle. One thing that makes it so phenomenal to apply game based learning elements to it is because math inherently is a problem, right? When you are learning math, it's not like. History where you're learning about information about a subject, which there's amazing ways of integrating that in a game based environment as well. But literally what you are. Learning is how to solve. A problem. So what's really cool that you can do from a game based perspective is you just present students with. A series of puzzles and problems to solve. And then that's how they learn. And this is the magic of how I mean, games are phenomenal, educational and teaching tool by themselves. Any games, all entertainment games is one reason why kids are so engaged is because they're actually learning. They're making progress. They're leveling up and each level up is a new skill that they're learning. It's a new mechanic that they're learning how to master. It's a math just naturally lends itself extremely well to that type of mechanic, and that's one of the areas that we really go deep in.
Kevin Hogan
Yeah. So would it be that like kind? Of the holy. Grail of math game based learning would be. The an addictive twitch like Tetris applied to a math course that could align with state standards that.
Ki Karou
Yeah, absolutely. You could think about. I mean, Tetris is a phenomenal, obviously, Tetris isn't a standards based activity, but the mathematical thinking, the spatial reasoning that you're doing there is, is phenomenal. I mean, phenomenal mathematical thinking that you're having to do and thinking thinking multiple steps ahead. I mean those are all problem solving skills that you actually want to develop. In mathematics, learning, and so that's actually a fantastic way to think about it. It's Tetris meets math education standards, right?
Kevin Hogan
We're getting there. I. Don't know if we're there yet, but certainly on the way with a lot of your work now, another topic that was that was pretty hot when we take away AI from isti is the idea of augmented reality and virtual reality. I saw a lot of things. Does that resonate at all with your work and the type of the things that you're doing when it comes to gaming?
Ki Karou
Yeah, it's an interesting space. Obviously, VR in particular is a very evolving space and it's going to be really interesting to see what kind of elements come out over the next two to three to five years here in particular. I think there's some really neat opportunities and these are things that we're looking at is how can you actually leverage in particular? Like we focus on mathematics, how can you leverage a 3D virtual environment in order to engage with objects in a way that obviously you can in a 2D environment, right. So we're very focused specifically on spatial temporal thinking, kind of like you described the Tetris. Element and there's elements that open up in that world that aren't available in 2D or aren't available in a classroom. And so that's, that's where I really get interested is, what are things that the technology is enabling that you literally can't do and is actually going to enhance create more deeper? Faster learning than you can create and. Where else? So that's a lot of excitement. Obviously one of the big challenges when it comes to any technology is device access, right? You know, vice access for all students, not just a small. Subgroup. So that's. Going to be one of the areas that I'm personally curious to see where that lands on, but lots, lots of opportunity in that space.
Kevin Hogan
Now when you look towards the future, say the next two or three years, what are the things that excite you most in terms of the possibilities of of the work that you're doing? Talk a little bit about where you see the mission of mine and and what you're doing and and how it progresses now that we're post pandemic.
Ki Karou
So specifically for mind, I mean, we're a neuroscience based research. Company, we're all focused on solving the math education problem. How do we get all kids mathematically equipped to solve the world's most challenging? Problems for us specifically, we are making the leap from a supplemental program to creating a core mathematics solution. So that means having a full basal curriculum in addition to the supplement. And what that does is allows us to take, I mean we've been developing interactive solutions for over 25 years. We have tons of research that shows the impact of leveraging game based elements in order to enhance learning and it allows us to take these key game based puzzles and actually build them into a classroom environment where you can now use that. As part of a core curriculum, so this is the challenge that so many games struggle with is you've got a one off game that's fantastic or a one off puzzle. It's fantastic, but how do you actually get that integrated in curriculum so that all teachers are going to use that and this allows us the opportunity to take our huge array of puzzles and arenas that we've built over the decades. And actually have those all layered within a curriculum. So that's one thing we're super excited about. We're in the depths of development with that and looking to do pilots starting next spring.
Kevin Hogan
Well, that's great because I mean those are some of the challenges I think that I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation about skepticism, right? I mean, so when you're talking about integrating game based learning into traditional math curriculum, where you, I just remember interviewing a math teacher who had actually kind of taken their algebraic formulas. And just kept the same chalkboard and we bring it back out year after year. This is the way I've always told Matt this is the way I'm always going to do it now they they all got shunted to the side in March 2020 when they had to bring their chalkboard out over zoom and then that was was largely in effect. But I hope that the work that you're doing is met with approval when it comes to those sort of things, is that at a district level that you're bringing that in or is it at one educator at a time?
Ki Karou
So when a core curriculum is purchased, it's purchased at a district level, and so that would be at a district level. And again, this is part of our mission and how do we reach more students with our approach? And yeah, that's the way that you that you do that.
Kevin Hogan
Well, Kyle, once again, I really appreciate your time and your insights. It's fascinating work that. You're doing and that would. Be a beneficial for the kids and for the. Teachers out there. To help them improve teaching and learning. So thank.
Ki Karou
You. My pleasure. It's great speaking with you today, Kevin.
Kevin Hogan
And that wraps.
Kevin Hogan
It up for this episode of Innovations and Education. Be sure to
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